New Laptops and Vista

[scorpius]

As some have found browsing or purchasing new laptops is, that all laptops released after January this year now have Vista installed and are not backward compatible with XP.

I discovered this when I recently purchased an F503AU Presario with the AMD Turion 2G 64 CPU with the NVidia 6100 Geforce Go series vga chipset. After discussion with HP, I was told that no further notebooks would carry XP and existing ones are being withdrawn from sale. XP officially dies in 2008 with all support being withdrawn. (Laughably, MS will still sell you a copy at $US265!)

This now bring up a dilemma in Scope Control and Astrophotography. Programs such as DSLRfocus, NexImage will not run in Vista because there are no drivers available. Celestron makers of NexImage say there could be drivers available in July. Tucam say they are not making drivers available for older cameras.

So far some of the Meade software, RTGUI/CDC/Ascom Registax work OK with a minor bug if you hit the software control pad whilst tracking, the entire system locks up.. Answer to that dont touch!

I spoke to a computer vendor about the system after after I tried to install XP, everything went well until I came to getting the VGA and Co-processor drivers for the F503AU chipset. They just do not exist.
He told me that his company had recalled all stock with XP installed last month.

Incidently NVidia do not list the 6100 drivers at all, its a chipset they sell to manufacturers who program and write up drivers themselves in the "new" pre-installed package systems, which now come with no CD/DVD but a separate recovery partition. This chipset has been replaced by the 7100 series (Vista)

I understand from an American collegue that the Presario Turion F503AU with the ATI CPU/VGA chipset can be backloaded to XP as the drivers are still available from ATI.. This seems crazy because ATI is now owned by AMD.

So what do we do now??? Wait and wait for support and most possibly no support for existing hardware. On EBay 2006 model notebooks with XP are now selling for more than the original RRP. Some stores are having clearance sales of XP motivated notebooks, but don't expect a bargain. They are becoming the proverbial "Hen's Teeth"

Newcomers to the hobby are certainly going to find the system very frustrating.

Another final nail in the coffin is that Linux self contained programs like Knoppix and Ubuntu will not run from a CD on the new notebooks, halfway thru the boot sequence they just stop working and the computer locks, requiring power down.

Today's Thought
When all else fails and your computer crashes...Give up the hobby!!:hmm:

[Draig]

Hi Dave,

I'm just courious, do we blame the companies who write new OSes(Such as Microsoft, Red Hat or Apple), the companies who create new hardware (such as HP, ATI, AMD, Intel, Nvidia, ASUS et al) or the companies who produce third party programs who cannot - or choose not to - update their programs to the latest OS / Hardware specifications.

People who write software or create hardware are not kept in the dark when it comes to the requirements of the new hardware / operating systems (well ok they are not given a code by code instruction on how Microsoft/Apple's new kernel in thier OS works, nor are they given the complete technical blueprints of the new INTEL/AMD CPUs and Chipsets) it is up to them to update their drivers or applications.

It is the delay or, in an extraordinary large number of cases, refusal to update their products that causes frustration for the user.

In the mean time try these drivers from HP http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareList?os=228&lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&product=3177518&lang=en , they are for a different model notebook to yours but they have the same Nvidia 6150 chipset as yours so hopefully they will work.

Cheers & Goodluck Colin

[scorpius]

I have already tried that one Colin and doesn't work. I also needed the co-processor drivers.

I feel that the producers of third party software don't want to update. They would rather start over and sell a new package and make another bank full of money.

I did a recovery on the laptop and re-installed Vista back to factory specs. But as mentioned, its amazing that the "Free" Astro software is the stuff that apparently works in Vista...
Dave

[Radar]

I can feel your pain. One thing I've learnt with Operating Systems is to stick with what works. Because of all the programs I have on my XP/PC here at home, I'm in no great rush to upgrade. As long as everything is working fine then I'll keep plugging away with XP.

It is funny how the programs that cost money are the ones that won't work seamlessly with Vista though :hmm:

[scorpius]

Agree Ray, but my old laptop just couldnt handle the graphics etc. My main PC is XP and works well. Am seriously thinking of putting a steel post outside to mount the EQ and remote control it from inside.:eartoear:

[Jackson42South]

As some have found browsing or purchasing new laptops is, that all laptops released after January this year now have Vista installed and are not backward compatible with XP.

When you say "Not backward compatible with XP", How is it not compatible?
Older operating systems should and still do work on new hardware platforms.

You must re-format the hard drive first then load XP, but I have yet to find a PC that will not load an older OS.
Also, Microsoft allow you to install an older OS if you own a later version, So you can legally load XP if you own Vista, but not the other way round.

[Radar]

We had this problem last year with windows XP. We tried to load a home edition onto it. but the previous version was pro, and wouldn't let us do it. I think it's Microsofts way of making everyone buy new software all the time.

[Jackson42South]

We had this problem last year with windows XP. We tried to load a home edition onto it. but the previous version was pro, and wouldn't let us do it. I think it's Microsofts way of making everyone buy new software all the time.

Hi Radar,
The home edition would not install due to a higher version of XP existing on the hard drive.
You have to format the hard drive first to wipe the existing version off the drive, and then you can install the Home edition, or any other version.

[scorpius]

When you say "Not backward compatible with XP", How is it not compatible?
Older operating systems should and still do work on new hardware platforms.

You must re-format the hard drive first then load XP, but I have yet to find a PC that will not load an older OS.
Also, Microsoft allow you to install an older OS if you own a later version, So you can legally load XP if you own Vista, but not the other way round.

Then welcome to the cruel world of Vista designed notebooks especially the Compaq F503AU :Chessy_Smile: :Chessy_Smile:

I have covered the situation on the IIS forum in great detail, what I have posted here is a precis of my findings. the situation relates mainly to the HP Compaq Presario Notebook model F503AU with the Turion 2G 64 AMD chip and the NVidia 6150 VGA chipset.

To make it very clear I did reformat the hard drive and did a completely fresh installation of XP Pro. Yes it did work after a fashion. I had on line discussions with the HP technicians and contacted many "Xperts" in the trade. However there are absolutely No Drivers for the AMD chipset nor the Nvidia chipset and co-processor available for Windows XP. In other words the laptop as far as VGA and its full features will not work correctly in any OS other that Vista..

The same laptop the F503AU with the ATI CPU/Vga chipset does have drivers for XP. but this model was only released in the USA.(Yes ATI is owned by AMD)

If you or anyone else for that matter can obtain drivers to run the F503AU AMD/Nvidia chipsets in XP perfectly, I will shout a case of beer to the first person to find and present the drivers to me, with the proof they work !

Incidently the NexImage camera will not work in Vista,(They talk of July when Vista drivers "may" be available) however I did some tests today and the Celestron AMCAP software for NexImage will work with an old cheap logitech webcam I modified... provided you download the the Vista drivers from Logitech.. Now there's a company that's got its act together.

Thought of the day
Why do the clouds close in every time I get my scope out?

[Radar]

Cheers Jackson. Very frustrating Dave. Hope you get it sorted soon. I guess I'll be sticking with XP for now.

[rogerg]

I feel that the producers of third party software don't want to update. They would rather start over and sell a new package and make another bank full of money.

It's all about money money money.

MS come along and say "sorry guy's, that software you wrote, it won't work now, we've changed the OS".

The customer comes along and says "hey 3rd party software provider, where's my free upgrade to keep my software running as-is but on the new OS?"

OK, so where is the 3rd party software provider going to magically get the money from to re-write their software for the new OS? MS ain't going to pay them, the customer isn't going to pay them, yet they are magically expected to whip it out of nowhere? You've got to be joking.

The problem is the consumer doesn't want to pay for it, and MS forces the change upon the rest of the community if they like it or not, usually providing the 3rd party provider with insufficient information and insufficient time to prepare properly.

There is no easy answer.

Me personally, I won't be upgrading for as long as I can stand my current hardware. I will likely buy a new PC for the observatory but it'll be additional not a replacement so can run side-by-side and slowly accumulate software that runs on Vista.

As a consumer, I'm not looking forward to paying for the software upgrades.

[Noel Carboni]

Well...

As a developer myself I feel a commitment to keeping my software working on my customers' platforms. After all, it's not the last piece of software I intend to sell to them or their friends!

A good example is Photoshop CS3... Just released by Adobe, and I have already tested my actions sets on it. Fortunately they all work, but even at that I'll need to update my packaging and instructions. And I knew this would be necessary so I am prepared for it.

Every developer needs to both keep his products current with the OSs and other software out there, and to develop new products. That's the way it works. Some of us feel more strongly about giving our current customers good value. Personally I don't like the trend toward charging people for every little tweak.

-Noel

[Draig]

HI All,

The problem with new OSes is not the old software such as planetarium software, Word type softwares or other third party softwares most of these, with a few very old/out of date applications will work even in Vista. However once your software, or the OS needs access to a Hardware device (Sound Card, Video, Printer Camera etc) you need a bit of software called a "Device Driver". This software is written by the Hardware manufacturer(or in the case of some hardware manufacturers their partners), NOT the OS Creator.

Lets face it code writing costs lots of money. Hardware manufacturers are only going to pay someone to write new code for their drivers IF THEY believe that THEY will benefit in the long run. Logitech is a good example they do keep their drivers up to date with all the new OSes, but even they draw the line and will not support their older products. This they believe makes good business sense- and to an accountant looking at the books it probably does. To a user who has an old Logitech device, and has no need or desire to update, it does not.

I applaud people like Noel who checks and updates their products with the new versions of OSes and Application Software. It shows dedication, professionalism and more importantly (I believe) ethics - something that is sadly lacking in the computer/it industry. Well Done Noel.

So who drives computer upgrades - The OS creates who lets face it just want to sell more and make more money; The Security Software companies who demand that your computers are constantly running security checks in the background which slow done your computer making you think that you need to update your hardware; The Application Software creators who want their programs to do more, look flasher and go faster; The Hardware Manufacturers who are pushing faster and faster CPU's, GPU's etc; Or is it the user who just wants the biggest, fattest, fastest computer that money can buy.

One thing for sure is that this is a complex discussion with no clear answer, and it does not solve anyone's problems.

[scorpius]

I certainly threw the cat amongst the pigeons here but has produced a lively debate. How about a spot of humour for desert.

Last night I was checking through all the various features of Vista and came across a section, Managing your computer In there it had a different version of disk cleanup manager to what we have been used to. After a long wait it came up and listed how much space I could save... Oh yeh ...

Wait for it.... After another long wait... everything on the desktop had vanished other than the waste bin. Hmmmm Right clicked on the desktop and a panel came up saying certain files were missing did I want to tell Mr Gates.

Pretty pointless, because internet, network etc etc no longer worked. It had cleaned up OK. Uninstalled half of Vista

Luckily I had made a recovery disk and left the recovery partition intact.

The moral of this story. Do not use the drive clean up utility and ensure you make a recovery disk. Incidently not on a DVD RW Vista does not like them for installation of applications.

Thought of the day
Live dangerously... Buy a laptop with Vista :eartoear:

I'm outa here .......disappears thru little hole on middle of screen..... Plop:welldone:

[wakaleo]

LOL. Good on you Dave (and all the others who have purchased Vista). You are all brave pioneers!

I won't even consider Vista for at least two years. By then many of the bugs will be ironed out, other software will have been upgraded and it will be a known 'realm' and therefore relatively safe to sail into.

Even then I'll need to be convinced that XP will no longer do what I want it to do. May just have to go totally Linux.

[Turnkey]

Hi Folks,
This is my first post to the forum. Regarding new laptops and Vista OS, Dell are now giving you the option of buying with either Windows XP or Vista as the OS. They had so many comments that they dropped the idea of a no option but Vista.

Turnkey
__________________
Guildford, Surrey, England
Meade ETX 90 - Nikon D40.

[Adrianf]

Hi guys I have been a Beta Tester for Microsoft Vista Beta 1 and then RC 1. I had a few problems with hardware so upgraded my PC to the latest and greatest. I thought I had learnt my lesson but no I had to go out and buy Vista Business. Beta1 was OK it only crashed occassionally I installed RC1 it crashed at least once a day and no drivers for wireless network cards (at the time) or video cards (at the time) and no webcam software. I set up 2 HD's one for Vista and one for XP and just plugged in the one I wanted. Vista Business continually crashes to the point where I formatted the HD and reinstalled XP. I think I upset people on the Vista Forums when I explained I used a virus scanner and it identified Vista as a virus, it was only meant as a joke but I have posted 5 questions on the forum and they have been totally ignored for the last 2 months. After the experience with 3 versions of Vista I will wait until SP2 comes out before I install Vista on any of my machines at home. I have received an email from my employer that Vista will be rolled out on the work PC's about mid year 2008 and the laptop they will be providing me, first 1/4 of 2008, will have Vista installed (**groan**) and no option to OS.

Adrian

[CanisMajorTom]

I use xp. I've seen vista on a home computer, looked okay, but getting all the third party programs to work with it is a mission. If you use third party programs I would stay away from Vista for now.

Tom :thumbsupmate:

[Radar]

G'day Turnkey,

Welcome to the site mate. :thumbsupmate:

I've stuck with windows XP simply from what everyone is saying about vista. I have heaps of third party programs to, so it would be a headache to use Vista at this stage.

What's the weather like up there at the moment?

Ray

[beren]

Ive been using Vista on a new lappy for the last week....... I like it :thumbsupmate: the only drama I had was trying to load the Phillips 900cnc webcam software, no luck but the cam itself works fine with K3ccdtools

[scorpius]

I have heard from a reliable source that apparently MS is bringing out SP3 for XP, which will embody previous updates and any later issues.

On top of this customers now buying New equipment may request XP to be installed instead of Vista due to overwhelming public demand. The next MS operating system is due to be released in 2010 by which time no one will want it as Ubuntu will rule the waves. :crazy:

[Radar]

Interesting stuff Dave. Thanks for the headsup. I think I'm gonna stay with XP for a long time to come.

Ray

[scorpius]

Interesting stuff Dave. Thanks for the headsup. I think I'm gonna stay with XP for a long time to come.

Ray

Agree Ray. XP has proven itself to be one of the better and more stable platforms and seems ridiculous to throw out a good working system. Since I changed the HP Laptop from Vista to XP, it has worked magnificently. In addition of course XP also does support the comand prompt to run some of the older programs like STSplus etc

There has certainly been a backlash against Vista, altho not a "Gamer" myself I understand that quite a few Vista games have been "modified" so that they will run under XP and Linux.

What MS has to realise is that there are some very smart and talented programmers in the community and whatever MS comes up with they are going to break it wide open and write patches etc to run in other OS setups.

At long last Celestron has brought out Vista drivers for their NexImage camera, a bit too late

This brings us back to a thought of the day

If it ain't broke don't flamin fix it

Cheers Dave