Scorpius and Saturn

[wakaleo]

Woke early this morning so nipped out to the front yard (all 15 acres of it) and set the Nikon D70 up to see what it could do. I was surprised by the detail in this pic of Scorpius with Jupiter to the east (mu1 and mu2 Scorpii can be seperated). I'm getting excited! Check out http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f96/Mekbuda/?action=view&current=DSC_2496.jpg for the original full resolution image.

[Mick]

Nice photo, how long was the exposure? with a longer exposure you should get M4 to show up.

[Radar]

Nice job Jim.

15 acres? What I woudn't do to live under dark skies with an area like that!

What were the ISO settings?

[wakaleo]

Thanks Mick. Of course the planet is Jupiter! Don't know how Saturn got in there but I'll blame advanced life experience!

Anyway, the lens was an AF-S Nikkor 18-70 at 31mm, f4 for 15 secs. The camera only has a maximum preset exposure time of 30 secs, unless you go for what Nikon calls 'bulb' but then you need a remote to open and close the shutter. I have one but the battery's flat and town is only 240km away (one way)!!! I'll have a go at a longer exposure tomorrow, but don't like my chances as the rain has started again.

[AstroTasmania]

Hi Wakaleo,

Try 30 seconds at full open at 1600 ISO. What image program are you using? Nikon Picture Perfect/Project? Very basic and not that user friendly & I am a Nikon user!!

I find that Nikon are very mean with their camera software compared to Canon. I have both makes so can compare very easily.

Everything that Nikon produces - you have to buy as an optional extra, expensive too. Canon includes their capture and processing software in the camera price.

To operate my D100, D200 by PC means buy Capture Control, process an image, buy Nikon Capture NX (a bit confusing as it does not control the camera) as in "Capture".

Clear skies...

[Draig]

Hi all,

Shevill in your opinion which is the better camera for astrophotos?

Cheers Colin

[AstroTasmania]

Hi Radar,

In answer to your question on another post, the answer is Yes. It is my own design for a specific purpose, which will be revealed as we proceed.

Here are shots of the base construction. a square base of treated pine sleepers with an inset octagon of 100 x 100 treated pine as the base to built the timber frames on. The square base is able to be leveled with one inch threaded rod and locking nuts on each corner. I am utilising an old vehicle service pit located between an upper & lower driveway.

The frames are made, as are the wall panels of colorbond, also the 8 colorbond triangular roof petals, which is the unusual feature of this design.

Entry will be from a covered pergola close to the house. The 4-metre dome is 35 metres away up the slope in another direction, which will eventually add the 16'' & (12'' Newtonian's already there in use). That is the general idea.

The new 2.2 metre dome will house the multiple scope Alhena system.

Clear skies...

[AstroTasmania]

Hi Colin,

I do not want to start a 'flame' war here, but this is what I have experienced so far.

Canon DSLR's have always been high (top) of the list from early days, so in spite of being a Nikon man, I bought a 350D last year and took a few shots with it and it, liked it is away being modified. For me it is an orphan in my Nikon film & DSLR collection as all my lenses & accessories are Nikon.

The 350D is easy to control with its own software up to 30 seconds, after that you need another serial cable & some third party software. (easy) Images Plus is both a camera control and a fantastic astro imaging processing package all in one, with tutorial CD's being available - and the price is just right. Plenty of after market stuff for several Canon models. Cannot go wrong there.

Nikon users are also being catered for - but more slowly. I did read reviews and made did research on the Nikon DSLR's and found the D50 to have the astro edge over the D70, so I had that converted (total filter removal and clear glass) so I can use it at all wavelengths. It has IR shutter control which has been slow the get short & long shutter control for.

I have three options to control the DSLR's.

D100 & D200 Nikon Capture software and electronic remote. Nikon D50 uses IR control with DslrStar, a stand alone or PC controlled unit made by Cercis Astro, also used for the 350D

I was not all that concerned about the D50 for non astro use as I have the D100 & D200, so did not go for the better spec D70.

It is my general view that Canon seems to be first choice, with a wide range of models and price points.

Other members will also like to make their comments too, who have much greater experience in digital SLR's for astro use. Noel Carboni comes to mind.

Hope this helps a bit, others will add to my comments in more specific detail- I hope.

Clear skies...

[Draig]

HI Shevill,

Thanks for that information.

As of the moment I do not own a camera. However I will admit to being greatly infleunced by the quality of images that are being produced by all of the members. I will soon have the opportunity to buy a DSLR at a reasonable price and I need to make up my mind as to which camera I will be buying.

I have no intention, nor do I want, to cause a flame war on which camera is better. I am mearly trying to sort out for myself, by asking various people, what they prefer. I will also admit to talking, and typing, before putting brain into gear and asking the wrong question - or to be more honest the right question but the wrong way.

I know Ray prefers to use film, but I'm an impatienent fat bugger and I want to see my results NOW!. So that means I will be using Digital. However I have not yet made up my mind to buy a camera, as I have no real need for one outside Astrophotography, or to buy a dedicated CCD such as a SBIG. The other issue is how to mount them to my Newtonian. And so it goes on...

If my question to you, and your excellent (and in my opinion, unbiased) answer has caused anyone to get flustered then please accept my appologies.

Cheers Colin

[AstroTasmania]

Hi Colin,

I doubt anyone will take any offense, just that many of my posts have been hijacked lately and somewhat, well you know what.

The genuine guys out there all want this sort of info, so don't worry. I usually only makes comments about gear that I have actually tried and or use, rarely do I speculate and theorise. I was in a past life, an "expert" witness for the Supreme Criminal Court of Tasmania, in all things biological crime scenes & scientific imaging - I got used telling it as it was!!!

Now you mention a dedicated cooled astro CCD - you open up a whole new field and requirements as well as a steep learning curve! Choices here are B&W, One Shot Colour, B&W with tricolour filter wheel etc and much deeper pockets compared to a DSLR.

The truly dedicated astro imagers really are the experts here, I only have a couple of low end cooled CCD by Starlight Express, a B&W and a small colour which I may use with the STAR 2000 I have as an autoguider on my Alhena system, these options are way open at the moment.

Maybe the answer is like telescopes, there may be no single "Best" camera - you will need to determine what you mean (loosely) by "Best" - I think this is where the difficulties lie. Best for one may well be junk to another.

This is a very interesting thread and I am interested to see comments from the experience users.

Clear skies...

[wakaleo]

Hi Wakaleo,

Try 30 seconds at full open at 1600 ISO. What image program are you using? Nikon Picture Perfect/Project? Very basic and not that user friendly & I am a Nikon user!!

Clear skies...

Gidday Shevill

I use the open source graphics programme called Gimp 2 for any digital image processing. It's quite powerful and, even better, is free!

I was very frustrated with Nikon's image software and have completely removed it from my computer, finding I didn't need it at all to achieve what I wanted.

I will give your recommended exposure and ISO a go when we next get a clear morning. I'll let you know how it goes. I have tried a few shots at ISO 1600 but wasn't particularly happy with the 'grainy' look. Just too fussy!

[Noel Carboni]

As with most any astroimaging, for the really amazing, smooth, deep shots one needs to take many, many exposures and stack them, to average out the noise.

I have always preferred Canon dSLRs because the noise characteristics of the CMOS imagers were always a little more to my liking than that of the CCDs in other models. Of course, once locked in to a brand, after accumulating lenses and accessories, one doesn't much think about jumping ship.

The current crop of dSLRs are all AMAZING machines, especially when compared to what was top of the line just 5 or 7 years ago. My first Canon dSLR was a D30 in 2000, a whole 3 megapixels and over $3,000 US! True pro models cost twice that then, and none could hold a candle to the least expensive dSLR today.

By the way I have a TC80-N3 timer controller for my Canon 20D, which can manage multiple exposures of whatever time you like. It's a nice compact little unit with a tiny LCD display, a few buttons, and a wheel. Not cheap though.

If you really, REALLY want to get into making truly eye popping astro images, you might consider jumping all the way to a purpose-built astro camera. There are some inexpensive models and some expensive models, and you tend to get what you pay for. Some folks are creating quite interesting images with Meade DSI models, for example, while others choose to go with more expensive, higher-end models.

A great mid-range dedicated astro camera with decent resolution is the Starlight Xpress SXV-H9C (or -H9 model). My chief collaborator, Greg Parker, started with one of these little cameras, and the imagery came out quite good. This was our first collaborative image, captured by Greg with his SXV-H9C through his Starizona Hyperstar/Celestron C11 setup providing about 500mm of focal length.

http://ccarboni.home.att.net/M33_Greg_2_Small.jpg

Greg has since moved up to a higher-end model, the Starlight Xpress SXVF-M25C, with a full 6 megapixel imager (the SXV-H9C had a little over 1 megapixel). You've probably seen some of the recent images we've made with that camera.

-Noel

[wakaleo]

Gidday Noel, thanks for the great and helpful info.

As with most any astroimaging, for the really amazing, smooth, deep shots one needs to take many, many exposures and stack them, to average out the noise.
Can this be done with images from a Nikon D70? Is this done in a programme like Registax? If not, what do you recommend?


I have always preferred Canon dSLRs because the noise characteristics of the CMOS imagers were always a little more to my liking than that of the CCDs in other models. Of course, once locked in to a brand, after accumulating lenses and accessories, one doesn't much think about jumping ship.
Absolutely, and since my camera is used for many other imaging jobs, I'm not about to change. Besides, it does what I expect of it (not that I wouldn't like a D200!)


By the way I have a TC80-N3 timer controller for my Canon 20D, which can manage multiple exposures of whatever time you like. It's a nice compact little unit with a tiny LCD display, a few buttons, and a wheel. Not cheap though.
I looked at getting a similar device for the D70 but the price was rather prohibitive, so I ended up buying a clever little remote device made by Bear Island Trading (bearislandtc@nc.it.com) that was a fraction of the price. It works as a simple remote shutter release however, with no timer capability.


If you really, REALLY want to get into making truly eye popping astro images, you might consider jumping all the way to a purpose-built astro camera. There are some inexpensive models and some expensive models, and you tend to get what you pay for. Some folks are creating quite interesting images with Meade DSI models, for example, while others choose to go with more expensive, higher-end models.
What do you think of this as an astronomical camera Noel (http://www.spaceandastronomy.com.au/3.3mp-cooled-ccd-camera.htm. I would not like to start off with something that I would need to replace if its limitations were reached a month after starting to use it (I learned early in life that the poor man always pays twice, not that I've been able to afford the best all the time!).


A great mid-range dedicated astro camera with decent resolution is the Starlight Xpress SXV-H9C (or -H9 model). My chief collaborator, Greg Parker, started with one of these little cameras, and the imagery came out quite good. This was our first collaborative image, captured by Greg with his SXV-H9C through his Starizona Hyperstar/Celestron C11 setup providing about 500mm of focal length.


http://ccarboni.home.att.net/M33_Greg_2_Small.jpg
And that was your first effort! Wow, there's hope for me yet! ;-)


Greg has since moved up to a higher-end model, the Starlight Xpress SXVF-M25C, with a full 6 megapixel imager (the SXV-H9C had a little over 1 megapixel). You've probably seen some of the recent images we've made with that camera.

-Noel

Hmmmm, might have to wait a while for a 6 megapixel imager - US$6,000 is just a tad more than I can afford!

[Radar]

That image of M33 is beautiful Noel. :thumbsupmate:

[Noel Carboni]

Can this be done with images from a Nikon D70? Is this done in a programme like Registax? If not, what do you recommend?


Yes, one can stack dSLR images with excellent results.

Registax seems to be best for planetary photography. There are a number of stacking programs. The ones I can think of, in no particular order, are Maxim DL, Images Plus, Registar, Astroart, and I'm sure a fair number more I don't know or have forgotten about. What I usually tell people to look for in a stacking program is a feature by which it will automatically look into the image and align it with all the others. Some require you to select one or several features in each subexposure, and that can get a bit tedious, especially if you take hundreds of subs.



What do you think of this as an astronomical camera Noel (http://www.spaceandastronomy.com.au/3.3mp-cooled-ccd-camera.htm.

At first glance it seems nice, but I wonder about it... Most astro cameras speak in terms of QE (Quantum Efficiency) rather than ISO rating. In any case I'd want to see images from it before passing judgment.

More megapixels isn't always better. One needs to consider photosite size vs. focal length of the scope, factor in typical seeing, and put some additional thought to how well your mount tracks. Most very long exposures are done with guided setups, which involves a second imager and optics to watch a star during the exposure and tweak the telescope mount to keep that star centered. I think there are some handy calculators on various online sites to help with this stuff, though I don't have any URLs handy at the moment.

Personally I would recommend a full color camera (such as the SXV-H9C and the camera you pointed out above) vs. a mono camera, especially for someone starting out in imaging. With the stacking process the resolution advantage of the mono camera begins to disappear, and the processing gets somewhat easier with color images.

You might be able to find a used SXV-H9C for a good price. People sometimes move up to cameras with larger imagers.

One thing to keep in mind: Even with a small imager, if your optics are pretty good you can make mosaics - i.e., construct large images from several small images that overlap a bit. Now that I think about it the M33 image I posted above was just such an image, stitched from two frames. That's why it's more or less square.

-Noel

[Draig]

Hi Noel,

Thanks for that post. Between you, Shevill and everyone else the information that is provided is excellent. It is certainly helping me work out what to buy and what programs to get, without wasting time, effort and money.

Cheers Colin

[wakaleo]

Gidday again Noel


Thanks for that post. Between you, Shevill and everyone else the information that is provided is excellent. It is certainly helping me work out what to buy and what programs to get, without wasting time, effort and money.

Cheers Colin

I'm with you Colin! Terrific information.