Mac or PC? Which is better for Astro Work

[CanisMajorTom]

I always hear that Macs are apparently better computers, but hardly anyone uses them. At least anyone I know anyway. It seems most people here use PC's. Is there some kind of advantage to using a Mac over a PC?

[AstroTasmania]

Mac's have always been the better platform for graphics work and video editing, and most graphic designers use them. The main disadvantage it the limited software availability once you move away from the main programs. Virtually nothing written for Mac by the vast multitude of astro software writers. PC's are also a lot cheaper. A case of horses for courses.

Others may like to add to my comments.

Clear skies...

[Radar]

If it's for astronomy stick with what everyone else uses, a PC. I think you'll find it hard to find programs written for the mac in the astro world.:pipethinker:

[Elliptical]

Macs are a very well sorted machine nowadays.However.....they are more expensive to buy than PC's and there is a more limited range of software available.However, they work very, very well.The iMacs are compact, powerful and the applications integrate beautifully, they are also available at a discount for students.The Mac G5 series slaughter any PC for speed, but would that be your requirement.They cost $4,000.00!

Seriously I like Apple Macs and if Gill Bates keeps locking us into his Microvision tunnel this will be my last ever Microsoft platform.I will go Linux or MAC.

So, For about Aust$1,100 (much less in USA) you can build a PC that would be fantastic and would have built in safety margin of "RAID 1" hard drive setup.This basically is two hard drives that contain an exact copy of each other.So if you have 2 x 320Gig drives, you have only 320Gig of space, not 640Gig.If one drive dies, the other has all data saved.

Here is my idea of a great setup based on socket 775 with Intel Conroe processor, overclocking is NOT an issue for virtually anyone except gamers:

A.Motherboard choice, either:
1.Asus P5B Deluxe.(Allows CPU overclocking very well)
2.Gigabyte DS3 Pro.(Allows CPU overclocking very well)
3.MSI P965 Platinum.(Excellent board, cheap, not as good for overclocking)

B.Processor (CPU):
1.Intel Conroe E6300. Outstanding. (E6400 and up are TOO Expensive.)

C.Memory:
1.A-Data or Corsair 1 Gig 667 (FSB speed 667. FSB 800 is not req)
2.Generic 1 Gig 667 (Cheaper than A-Data or Corsair by $40.00)

D. Drives:
3.2 x Seagate 250 or 320Gig 7200 rpm SATA II 16Mb cache(Seagate are the most purchased drives & a user Favourite)
BUT...Having two internal drives is still a compromise as both drives are still screwed into the same PC chassis.What about Security?
Instead, You could get a board with ESata (plug / unplug hard drive) if you dont want RAID 1 , or get a 2nd drive with "one touch" backup facility with USB,ethernet or firewire 400.This allows you to do a backup at the end of the day, and remove the drive for safekeeping.

D. CD / DVD burner:
Pioneer, Samsung, LG, Sony,Lite-on, as long as it does CD's and DVD's.
TDK make a RW DVD with an "armoured" coating, it can't be easily scratched and archives your valuable space shots.

E.Case:(Gamer cases mostly are the strongest as they go to game parties, they also have a carry strap)
Steel cases provide faraday protection.Steel is also stronger and cheaper than aluminium cases by a fair margin.(Dont get a beige colour case!...please)
One critical thing with a PC is the power supply.For this build you need a good 500watt unit.These motherboards have onboard graphics suitable for anyone except motion video producers and gamers.If you choose to add a dedicated video card later you should get a 600 watt power supply unit to start with.Best brands are Tagan, Seasonic, Coolermaster,Antec,Thermaltake.Especially the first two.Go for a %80 efficiency unit, it will run cooler and the fan will not come on and annoy you all the time.You can also get "fanless" designs....

F.PORTS:
Get a front mounting USB / Firewire / Volume panel it make life a LOT easier.

E.If you can afford it get an "offline" UPS....that means the PC is always working off the batteries which are being constantly recharged by the 240v (or 110v).They are the ONLY UPS's that provide total protection against spikes.The standard UPS is an "online" type that only switch to batteries when the 240v (or 110v)goes down.

Hope that helps,
Elliptical (I dont know much about scopes but PC's are my nerd hobby)

[AstroTasmania]

Hi Elliptical,

I have been heavily into PC's since the mid 80's and for the last 12 years have always built my own, many for top end video capture & editing, some with a 4 drive RAID, all very interesting stuff. I capture a lot of my astro image stuff straight to PC's in various options. It is then easy to transfer all my capture files through my network into my studio in the house from the observatory, where I can work in warmth & comfort.

What sort of telescopes do you have and what are your astronomy interests? do you use your Mac for any astronomy work, if so what programs do you use? and how do they rate to the humble PC?

Clear skies...

[Elliptical]

Hi Shevill,

I am a novice who recently asked for some advice on my first scope, to which you provided me with valuable answers, thankyou. My journey on astronomy began 10 years ago and I really hope to visit your observatory when I next visit Tasmania, if you accept visitors.

The first scope purchase will be a Meade 80 ED APO refractor (with Japanese - Ohara Glass) on a Meade LXD75 mount with Autostar and GPS.

My spending limit is Aust$10K so after purchasing the 80MM and mount etc I will have enough left for a Meade 10" LX200R to be purchased in late 2007.

I will be at the NSW Astronomical Society Star party in 2007, and am having a great time with astronomy.It is a source of endless wonder to me, and I am happy to remain a novice and learn from more experienced astronomers.

best regards,
Simon.

[gyro]

I have friends that have always used Macs and who would never consider saving money to use a PC, however they say Windows is now being included in Macs and the price difference is falling. Mr Gates strikes again !!

[AstroTasmania]

Hi Gyro

How do your friends go when trying to use programs like RegiStax and all the other astro software - I don't see much around written for the Mac, just curious!

Clear skies...

[Tenacious Del]

PC's all the way in my very amateur opinion. I just know that many astro programs you get for the PC are not available on Mac.

Elliptical, what does socket 775 mean please?

[gyro]

Hi Shevill,
They use Sky6 and SN Pro/Plus and they suggest this site for soarcing Mac astro progs'

http://www.midnightkite.com/software.html

The photo enthusiast is not around, I'll get back to you.

[Elliptical]

CPU's have pins, the number 775 refers to the number of pins on the PC motherboard socket for the CPU.Socket 775 motherboards are ready for the fitment of an Intel Pentium 4 , Pentium D or E6300, E6400,E6700 "Conroe" processor.

You can NOT fit an AMD brand CPU to socket 775 motherboards.

PC's & Macs are now an indispensible tool in many walks of life, and luckily there are people as dedicated to bringing light to the subject of Build your own PC's as there are for Astronomy.My Astrospace being for Astronomy fanatics I wont bother to spend more time with the PC side of it.Actually you can buy a mid price Dell or Asus and it would do nicely for much of your imaging work.Paying a little extra for the 3 year warranty is a good idea.

Try:

http://www.tomshardware.com/index.html

regards,
Elliptical

[CanisMajorTom]

Thanks for the feedback guys. :thumbsupmate:

[Radar]

Does a Mac use a different computer language than a PC? Or is it that they use a different Operating system?

I'm just curious.

[AstroTasmania]

Hi Gyro,

Sadly, all the little programs like RegiStax, Nebulosity, Registar, DSLR Focus, DSLRStar, and a couple of dozen others, are all written for PC only, not enough Mac users to make it worthwhile the extra work. Sure, some of the expensive planetarium and top end processing software is also written for Mac.

Limited astro software is the downside as far as a Mac for astro use, and that is what the question is really about.

I all the dozen or so astro groups I belong to I never see a Mac even mentioned, just PC's.

Now if it were serious magazine graphics & desktop publishing, that is maybe a different story.

Clear skies...

[Radar]

What is that program nebulosity like Shev?

[AstroTasmania]

Some very nice (free) software for camera control and image capture, and a range of features with USB type cameras. Produced by Craig Stark at Starklabs.

Not for film photography though!

Clear skies...

[Tenacious Del]

Whats the difference between usb 1 and usb 2?

[FarmerBen]

Whats the difference between usb 1 and usb 2?

Speed.

Usb1.1 runs at 12Mb/s (megabits per second)
Usb2.0 runs at 480Mb/s

If a usb1.1 device is connected to a usb2.0 port the port will negotiate to the slower speed.

Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Ben.

[gyro]

Speed. runs at 12Mb/s (megabits per second)
Usb2.0 runs at 480Mb/s

How to tell which version is on my LT. ?

[FarmerBen]

Just want to throw my 2c in here.

12 months ago I switched to OS X after 15 years working with PC's and Windows (version 2.0 is what I started with).

Despite the "FarmerBen" title I've been an IT SysAdmin at various levels for the past 15 years and most of the guys I'm now working with are using Linux or OS X at work and for their personal computing. All for the same reasons, they're tired of "dealing" with windows.

My first Mac is my current MacBook and so far it's been brilliant - a complete breath of fresh air. But OS X won't suit everyone and I'm the first to acknowledge that. However, I don't see OS X as a compromise and I've been able to do EVERYTHING I used to be able to do with a PC, and more.

Now, I went OS X before I bought my Meade 10" LX200. At the time I bought my Mac, computerised astronomy was furtherest from my mind. I was more interested in the Mac for photoshop use with my photography.
But as I researched the scope, I also researched my Mac's ability to work it and all the accessories I might add. So far I haven't found anything I can't do, and nothing I would consider as a compromise to Windows.
(Remember I'm just starting out with Astrophotography so I'm still collecting software)

Useful sites I've found for OS X include:
http://www.versiontracker.com
http://www.macupdate.com
and this one of course

I'm not trying to convert anyone. OS X is a mature OS in it's own right and if you make the switch with an open mind, as I have, you won't be disappointed.

The cost difference between PCs and Macs always comes up in discussions like this and it was certainly something I considered when I switched. But having now lived with a Mac for over 12 months I can honestly say the initial higher cost is negated by the much lower incidents of "OFFS" moments, BSODs (Blue Screens of Death), driver problems, rebuilds, viruses, stress etc. (again, this is my personal experience, you make up your own mind)

Of course, if you find there is a windows app that you just can't live without and there's no equivalent in the Mac world you can always run Parallels or one of the other open-source/freeware virtualisation tools, and run Windows in a window.

Just saying is all...

Ben.

[FarmerBen]

How to tell which version is on my LT. ?

As a general rule, all recent Lappies will have USB2.0.

I'm assuming you run a version of windows so you can get information by doing the following:

Right mouse click on "My Computer"
Select "Properties"
Select the "Hardware" tab
Click on the "Device Manager" button
Scroll down the list of devices till you get to "Universal Serial Bus Controllers"
Expand that list
Look for the word "Enhanced" or USB2 (they should appear on the same line)
If you don't see that, then you're running 1.1 controllers.

(the above assumes Windows XP but other version will be similar)

If OS X then use the System Profiler by Option clicking on the apple menu.

Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Ben.

[FarmerBen]

Does a Mac use a different computer language than a PC? Or is it that they use a different Operating system?

I'm just curious.

Essentially they're just a different operating system but they all speak in 1's and 0's :wink:

Applications are written/compiled for the OS and some are cross-platform and can run on any OS.

01000111011011110110111101100100001000000100110001 110101011000110110101100100001

Cheers,
Ben.

[gyro]

Look for the word "Enhanced" or USB2 (they should appear on the same line)
If you don't see that, then you're running 1.1 controllers.

(the above assumes Windows XP but other version will be similar)

Thanks Ben,
There are 7 entries. Only one includes "USB2 enhanced Host controller 27cc", but I assume I have Usb 2.o.

I'd love a Mac but use a 17inch laptop and the MAC version is just too expensive. :frown: :frown:

Cheers.

[Radar]

Ben I've heard that for hardcore processing, Mac's are better, but overall, they are all the same. When I say hardcore processing, I'm talking wavelets, bi-polar interpolation techniques in software such as PixInsight.

I guess it depends on how serious you want to get, Noel Carboni is a processing guru, and would probably know more about this.

Ray

[Noel Carboni]

I always hear that Macs are apparently better computers, but hardly anyone uses them. At least anyone I know anyway. It seems most people here use PC's. Is there some kind of advantage to using a Mac over a PC?

There is really no one kind of computer that's simply "better" than another.

The very fastest (and most expensive) Macs have performance in much the same realm as the very best PC workstations. They all have Intel Pentium processors now. And (contrary to the commercials and hype) a PC workstation can be as stable and usable as a Mac.

Macs run different software than PCs, though the line is blurring now with the advent of virtualization programs (e.g., VMWare). Using VMWare Fusion, or Parallels, or several others, a Mac can run PC software in a virtual machine. The opposite would be true but for one thing: Apple does not allow you to run OSX in a virtual machine. It's a legal issue rather than a technical one. So, from a compatibility perspective, it could be said that a Mac can run more software than a PC. In practice, there is so much more PC software available it's kind of a non-issue; there's usually a solution for what you want to do that will run on a PC.

Your concerns could be:

1. What software do you already have that you want to run?

2. What system are you used to using? People who have used PC/Mac can get used to Mac/PC, but it will take some time.

3. Are you willing to spend the effort/time to manage it well so that you get the most out of your workstation?

Currently I use a Dell Precision 470 PC workstation, nicely equipped. It's a few years old, but it still screams. I also have a MacBook, also well put together.

Right now, today, if I were going to build a penultimate astroimage processing workstation, I'd probably go with another PC workstation from Dell (since their high-end Precisions are price-competitive and performance-competitive with Apple's high-end Macs, and since I happen to like Windows better than OSX).

Dual quad core processors, a 64 bit OS, and at least 8 GB of memory will future-proof a workstation for a few years. I'm still running XP x64 currently, but I'd probably brave the Vista 64 waters with a new system. I've seen and played with a top-end Dell Precision (690) running Vista. It's no slouch!

Another thing to consider with any purchase is your user interface. Put bluntly, get one or even two of the biggest, brightest, most amazing LCD displays you can. Your images will be all the better for it. Currently I have two Dell 20.1" displays that are 4 years+ old. Doing it again right now I'd probably start with a single wide-format 30" display, then get another of them when I got a bit more money.

Hope this helps!

-Noel

[Noel Carboni]

An anecdote:

I've been working on a software development project with an old friend and co-worker who's got a Mac Pro. We live 75 miles from one another and often spend all day collaborating using Skype (for voice) and Yugma (to see one another's displays). We stress our computers hard, doing lots of networking, software builds, testing (usually on virtual machines running XP or Vista or Linux), Internet research, and we're always opening up tons of windows. What we're doing is very, very complex. Both of us are quite adept at managing and using our respective workstations.

We both stress the computers pretty hard day in and day out. All in all, I'd say things crash or fail on his Mac just as often as they do on my PC, which is not very often in either case. It's not at all like the "Hi, I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC" commercials.

-Noel

[FarmerBen]

Ben I've heard that for hardcore processing, Mac's are better, but overall, they are all the same. When I say hardcore processing, I'm talking wavelets, bi-polar interpolation techniques in software such as PixInsight.

I guess it depends on how serious you want to get, Noel Carboni is a processing guru, and would probably know more about this.

Ray

At a hardware level they are just about all the same. Both use the Intel platform but Apple seem to be rather picky about what they choose to support in the production model computers.

At the OS level I think OS X performance is head and shoulders above Windows. I do admit that this is just in my day-to-day use and not with any serious processing, but I can't imagine it wouldn't translate.

Anyway, back to the original topic "Mac or PC? which is better for Astro Work" I don't think one is better than the other. If you have windows, then unless you're switching to Mac for other reasons, stay with it if you're happy with it. If you have a Mac, then I can't find any reasons to switch over to Windows just for Astro work (remember I'm new to the Astro stuff and still finding my way).

I think a big mistake people make when switching one way or the other is to believe marketing/fan-boy rhetoric of one OS over the other, and assume the change is going to be mind-blowingly life changing. It won't be in the majority of cases, and in all cases there will be a learning curve. An open mind is required and either way you choose to go, you will have learned something new which can only be a good thing. :smile:

I've been assuming Windows, but what hasn't been mentioned is Linux. Ubuntu is turning into a fabulous distribution (I run Gutsy Gibbon on my home PC), and OpenSuse is looking rather excellent too. Are there any Linux users out there? It would be interesting to hear what you have to say in the debate, which could go on forever :smile:

Cheers,
Ben.

[FarmerBen]

There is really no one kind of computer that's simply "better" than another.

The very fastest (and most expensive) Macs have performance in much the same realm as the very best PC workstations. They all have Intel Pentium processors now. And (contrary to the commercials and hype) a PC workstation can be as stable and usable as a Mac.

Macs run different software than PCs, though the line is blurring now with the advent of virtualization programs (e.g., VMWare). Using VMWare Fusion, or Parallels, or several others, a Mac can run PC software in a virtual machine. The opposite would be true but for one thing: Apple does not allow you to run OSX in a virtual machine. It's a legal issue rather than a technical one. So, from a compatibility perspective, it could be said that a Mac can run more software than a PC. In practice, there is so much more PC software available it's kind of a non-issue; there's usually a solution for what you want to do that will run on a PC.

Your concerns could be:

1. What software do you already have that you want to run?

2. What system are you used to using? People who have used PC/Mac can get used to Mac/PC, but it will take some time.

3. Are you willing to spend the effort/time to manage it well so that you get the most out of your workstation?

Currently I use a Dell Precision 470 PC workstation, nicely equipped. It's a few years old, but it still screams. I also have a MacBook, also well put together.

Right now, today, if I were going to build a penultimate astroimage processing workstation, I'd probably go with another PC workstation from Dell (since their high-end Precisions is price-competitive and performance-competitive with Apple's high-end Macs, and since I happen to like Windows better than OSX).

Dual quad core processors, a 64 bit OS, and at least 8 GB of memory will future-proof a workstation for a few years. I'm still running XP x64 currently, but I'd probably brave the Vista waters with a new system. I've seen and played with a top-end Dell Precision (690) running Vista. It's no slouch!

Another thing to consider with any purchase is your user interface. Put bluntly, get one or even two of the biggest, brightest, most amazing LCD displays you can. Your images will be all the better for it. Currently I have two Dell 20.1" displays that are 4 years+ old. Doing it again right now I'd probably start with a single wide-format 30" display, then get another of them when I got a bit more money.

Hope this helps!

-Noel

Hi Noel, Nicely put.
Cheers,
Ben.

[gyro]

SNAP. :thumbsupmate: